Talk:Nair ceremonies and customs

Rulers of Kerala

Nothing to do with customs and ceremonies. - Sitush (talk) 12:29, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

1. Venad was once a Naga Kingdom - From Puranas 2. Kerala was known as Udra Keralam at the time of Mahabharata - King of Kerala supported the Pandavas in Kurukshetra war. 3. Chola Dynasty - 1C.E. to 13 C.E. 4. Chera Dynasty - 3 B.C.E to 12 C.E. 5. Chalukya Dynasty- 6th century to 12 century - North Malabar only 6. Rashtrakuta Dynasty - 6th century to 10th century - North Malabar only 7. Vijayanagara Empire - 13th century to 16 century 8. Portuguese period - 15 century to 16 century 9. Dutch period - 17th century to 18th century 10. French region in Kerala - 1724 to 1785 (In 1741, Mahé de La Bourdonnais retook the town after a period of occupation by the Marathas. In 1761 the British captured Mahé, India, and the settlement was handed over to the Rajah of Kadathanadu. - information from Wikipedia) 11. Rule of King Hyder Ali and King Tipu Sultan - 1766 to 1792 12. Maratha Empire - 18th century to 19 century (Someone edited the information about South India in Wikipedia) 13. British rule - 1792 to 1947 14. Formation of new Kerala - 1961

Nair sub-castes

Irrelevant to this article. - Sitush (talk) 19:51, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

From Census of India, 1901: India I. Report - Page 133: "The Kiriyam Nairs belong more to Cochin and British Malabar than to Travancore and are supposed to represent the highest class. The Illakkar are found in very large numbers in Travancore and may be taken as the highest class of Travancore Nairs." From Sociological Bulletin, Volumes 7-9: "In the high group are the sub-castes of Vellayma Sudra Nairs, Nair-Panikkars, and Kiriyathil Nambiars, the first being numerically large in the group.6 With rare hypergamous alliances each of these sub-castes tended to be endogamous. The middle group is formed of the sub-castes of Ayikara, Ulladan, Vatekat and Pallichan each of which was generally endogamous. The low group is constituted of the endogamous sub-castes of Atikurssi, Veluthedan and Vilakathiravan." From Kerala, Volume 1 "Kiriyathil Nayar — they form the highest of all the Nayar subdivisions in the Cochin State as well as in South Malabar. The corresponding caste in Cochin was called Vellayma Nayar. 2. Illattu Nayar — they are also known as Shudra Nayar in Cochin and South Malabar." Census of India, 1961 - Volume 7 - Page 19 "Anthuran, Pallichan and Vattekad Nairs have to be treated as an intermediate class of Sudras because there is neither inter- dining nor inter-marriage between the members of these subdivisions and the high caste Shudras." Book: Maharashtra, Part 3 Nairs and ancient supernatural tribes of South Asia "According to Brahmin tradition, the Nair community is the offsprings of the union between the Nambudiris and Deva, Gandharva and Dakshasa women who were introduced by Purasuram." "The Naga Kingdom In the Mahabharata the Naga Kingdom is the territory of a hardy and warlike tribe called Nagas. They were also considered as one of the supernatural races like the Kinnaras." (Wikipedia) From Census of India, 1961 - Page 301 "The Nairs of the village belong to the highest subdivisions known as Kiriyathil Nairs and Illathu Nairs. The former was also known as Vellaima Nairs to whom belonged to aristocratic classes such as Panicker, Kurup, Kaimal, Kartha." Book: Maharashtra, Part 3. Author: B. V. Bhanu "The Nair women are never engaged as laborers. They have no role in the collection of fuel. They have to fetch water for their family. They are solely responsible for the entire domestic chores, including cooking and serving food, rearing children etc." From: Asiatic Journal, Volume 25 "The physiognomy of the Nair bears a strong resemblance with the Rajpoot caste of other countries. I, therefore, think it very probable that present mountaineers, who bear the original arms of the country, and whose persons and features are widely different from those of Nair caste, were driven to present unhealthy, but more secure places of abode, by superior power invaders from a foreign country: the former being an ignorant and barbarous race, whilst the Nair, comparatively speaking, is a civilised and even polished caste of people."

Nairs are not related to Bunts

Pointless because the sources are not reliable, per longstanding consensus. - Sitush (talk) 19:53, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

The Naga worship of Nairs is entirely different from the Naga worship of Bunts. Region of ancient Kerala is from Kanyakumari to Mangalapuram(Mangalore). In Keralolpaththi there is a mention about Nairs but there is no mention about Bunts. Jat community of north India are also Nagavanshis but they too are not related to Nairs. I have heard that Rajputs do not marry from Jat community. From: Asiatic Journal, Volume 25: "The physiognomy of the Nair bears a strong resemblance with the Rajput caste of other countries. I, therefore, think it very probable that present mountaineers, who bear the original arms of the country, and whose persons and features are widely different from those of Nair caste, were driven to present unhealthy, but more secure places of abode, by superior power invaders from a foreign country: the former being an ignorant and barbarous race, whilst the Nair, comparatively speaking, is a civilised and even polished caste of people." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.139.44 (talk) 15:16, 5 April 2018 (UTC) People of India: Maharashtra, Part 1 by Kumar Suresh Singh: "They are also called by different names such as Bants, Bakada, and Bakadigs. In Tulu language 'Bunt' means a strong powerful person and they regard themselves as belonging to a warrior class originally. They do not recall any authentic accounts of their origin. Bunts do not carry any community mark and have no specific dress pattern of their own by which they can be identified as distinct from other immigrant communities." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.139.44 (talk) 15:36, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Sitush, have you compared the Bunts and Nairs. I have read about customs and the traditions of Bunts on their website, I have seen the videos of their Naga worship on YouTube. They are entirely different from that of Nairs. Only after that I have concluded that Nairs are not related to Bunts. Bunts too have said that they have no relation with Nairs. Refer books and census reports, talk to the people of the community about which you want to know, Wikipedia is not a place write details created in imagination.

Sitush, click 'CULTURE AND TRADITION' on this website http://www.buntsmathrsangha.net/# The culture and tradition of Bunts are entirely different from that of Nairs. As I love cooking I have tried recipes of different states of India. I have also tried some recipes of Bunt community. Undoubtedly, they are very tasty. But these recipes are not there in Nair community. Even their spice mixes(Masalas) are different. For example, Nairs don't use Pulimunchi Masala in their cuisine.

I am sharing another website in which the death rituals of Bunts are given, http://buntssanghamumbai.com/index.php/about-us/death They too are very different from that of Nairs. For example, Nairs don't chant 'Govinda Govinda' at the time of death rituals. Bunts don't have a ritual called 'Nilam Mezhukuka', it is a ritual of Kiriyathil-Illathu Nair community and it is performed after the cremation of dead body. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.194.67.158 (talk) 08:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

(a) Irrelevant to this article; (b) caste-affiliated websites are not reliable sources. Just stop it, please. - Sitush (talk) 09:37, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Nairs - in business and trading

This has nothing to do with customs and ceremonies. - Sitush (talk) 12:28, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Indian Renaissance: British Romantic Art and the Prospect of India by Hermione de Almeida: "Luis de Camões' travel journals and his Lusiads (1572), translated into English in 1776, also told of the idyllic Nair community and its gracious trade in vital spices like cinnamon, cardamom, sandalwood, and pepper; and he contrasted the civility of its thriving seaport of Calicut with the tawdry living of Dutch settlers and Portuguese adventurers in the former Nair port of Cochin.52 Before Camões, the Portuguese traveler Domingo Paes also told in 1520 of the Nairs' astute management of the ancient spice route, and of their cultural and religous ties with the Brahmin kingdom in the Deccan whose capital, Vijayanagar, was a large and splendid as Rome - and was the center of an international market for art and culture" "It is the best part of India... It the richest and most splendid province in the world... Malabar(Kerala) and Ceylon(Sri Lanka) between them produce most of the pearls and gems that are to be found in the world." "Nair men were known for their skills as warriors in protecting their thriving coastal community from outside forces." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.139.44 (talk) 14:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC) From Matrilineal Kinship edited by David Murray Schneider, Kathleen Gough: "Nair chiefs with private armies had emerged as vassals of Perumals at least by the 9th century. Bu the mid-13th century, at the latest, the greater Nair chiefs had become independent small kings, and Perumals had disappeared. Chinese had resumed trade with Kerala sometime in Perumal period, and in the 13 century, this trade greatly expanded under the empire of Kublai Khan. Concomitantly, two coastal Nair chiefdoms with strategic ports expanded into small kingdoms by conquering the surrounding inland chiefdoms and monopolizing their trade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.139.44 (talk) 14:25, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Nairs - Kalarippayattu

Pointless because the source and blogspot are not reliable. - Sitush (talk) 19:53, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Please write about Kalarippayattu in detail. Do not link it to the existing article. Existing article is written by some people of Kaniyar(astrologer) community. Please visit this website https://nagavanshisofkerala.blogspot.in/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.219.50.5 (talk) 02:56, 6 April 2018 (UTC) From Manual of the Administration of the Madras Presidency, in, Volume 2 Madras (India: Presidency) - Great Britain - 1885: "The Nairs of Malabar have always been essentially a martial organization, and that their language was Dravidian. That the original Nairs were serpent-worshippers is attested by the fact that to this day a form of serpent worship is maintained in every wealthy Tarwad, and a corner of the compound is set apart for the snakes. The war-like propensity of Nairs is attested by the employment of implement of war in their household ceremonies, by their isolated modes of living in midst of fenced gardens by the establishment of each village or Tara of a "Kalary" or gymnasium, where their youth were taught to accustom themselves to the use of arms. Their ballads were too abound with stories of martial achievements of heroes."

Okay Sitush, forget about the Blogspot. No need to add information from them. But one thing, I have not written anything created in my imagination like "some people" do to glorify their community, I have only added information which I got from books and websites. Please read what the historians who were born many years before you have written about the communities of Kerala. In the census report of 1881, it is clearly written that your favorite community, Kaniyar, are actually migrants from Tamil Nadu.

• In Kerala -Volume 1 by Suresh Kumar Singh, T.Madhavan Menon, D.Tyagi it is given that The Kaniyan are known by different names in different regions of Kerala, such as the Kaniyan or Balleyyaya in northern areas, the Panikar in Central Malabar, the Ganaks or Ganika in Cochin area, the Kani or Kanian or Kanisan in Travancore area. But irrespective of their local reference, they are now generally called the Kaniyar or Kaniyan. In central Malabar, they are referred to as Rashi Panikar, which means the Panikar who deal in Rashi, i.e. horoscope. (which clearly shows that Kalari Kurup/Kalari Panicker was not another name of Kaniyar community)
• In Census of India, 1911, Volume 18 it is given that Nambi Kurup was actually the title of Nambeeshans. And Nambeeshans belong to Ambalavasi community. But once in a Wikipedia article, it was written that Nambi Kurup was actually a title given to Kaniyars. And there was no citation for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.194.67.158 (talk) 06:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

(a) British Raj era sources are not reliable; (b) the "states" series of The People of India is not reliable either because it mostly just copies the Raj sources. - Sitush (talk) 09:38, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Gotras of kings of ancient Tamil Nadu

Irrelevant. - Sitush (talk) 11:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

From Art and culture of Tamil Nadu (1980): "Tamil royal families claimed descent from one or the other of the Vedic sages. Thus the Pallavas belonged to the Bharadvaja gotra and their ancestry included Angiras, Brihaspati, and Bharadvaja. The Pandyas belonged to the Atreya Gotra, the Cholas to the Kasyapa and the Western Gangas to the Kanvayana. The tradition of Vedic ancestry is not mentioned in Sangam literature, but it had taken deep roots long before the sixth century A.D." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.246.193 (talk) 16:23, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Sambandham

Sambandham existed in not only Nair community, it also existed in Ambalavasi and Royal families of Kerala. Nairs and Royal families never fixed Sambandhams to raise their caste status. Both these communites were highly respected communities in ancient times. Children born from Sambandhams never inherited their father's property. The Royal families and Nair families were highly blessed with wealth and money. In Chola-Chera war many Kshatriya men(kings and warriors) had lost their lives because of which Nairs and Royal families had to fix Sambandhams and accept matrilineality. There was no other way to save their community from extinction. Ambalavasis actually belong to Devadasi community and women of these communities sang and danced in public and did temple duties. As Amabalavasis were more connected to Temples, Sambandhams must have existed in large extent in Ambalavasi community.

From From Caste and Territory in Malabar by Eric J.Miller: "Special ties linked with military subcastes of Nairs and castes above them. Among Nambuthiris, only the eldest son was permitted to marry within the caste. But he and his younger brothers could take wives from Royal families or from superior Nair subcastes. The Royal castes were all exogamous: their women were married to Nambuthiris, while their men took Nair wives. Such hypergamy was practiced on a restricted scale among upper Nair subcastes. Since the Nambuthiri and Royal castes were much smaller, most Nair women had Nair husbands." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.219.50.5 (talk) 03:09, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Note: In ancient times, Kerala was known as Malabar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.219.50.5 (talk) 03:20, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

So what? The article concerns the Nairs, not some other caste. - Sitush (talk) 11:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Nagavanshis of Kanchipuram

Cannot see the relevance. - Sitush (talk) 12:27, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

From From Tamil Geographies: Cultural Constructions of Space and Place in South India by Martha Ann Selby, Indira Viswanathan Peterson: "This statement appears to describe aa Pallava takeover of Kanchipuram in three generations, but it may actually depict the careful manner in which Kanchipuram's "Naga" clan of Bhaagvatas sustained it's purity so that Ghatika would continue to recognize it as qualified to provide Kings of Tontai's people. Virakuca's marriage into the ruling Naga lineage gives the Pallavas the authority to rule eventually, but by means of a representative that represents naga interest and status. Skandasisya, his son by Naga princess, is now his Marukan(മരുമകൻ?) of his mother's Naga brothers; this means he is both qualified for cross-cousin marriage for naga lineage and is an ideal husband for their daughters. We learn from Pallavamalla's unction that members of the Brahmin Ghatika perform, which explains why the Ghatika supports Sakndasisya's male heir rather than the male heir of ruling Naga king named Satyasena. If the ruling Satyasena is Skandasisya's mother's brother, a Naga, and if Skandasisya marries Satyasena's Naga daughter, then according to the custom of cross-cousin marriage, the Pallava Skandasisya is preferred to the Naga Satyasena, because Skandasisya's male heir will combine in her person both Pallava and Naga lineages. He will be the center of the coherent indigenous clan, some of whose members are "outsiders" who by now have become "insiders", a clan qualified to continue providing kings for Kanchipuram. The Ghatika, therefore, performs the unction(Abhisheka) that gives Skandasisyas heir, Kumaravishnu, royal control of the city." From The Ocean of Churn: How the Indian Ocean Shaped Human History by Sanjeev Sanyal: "Remember that the Pallava dynasty began with a marriage to Naga Princess. So Nandi Varman II may have been making a different point - that he was a descendant of a Pallava prince - that is Bhima and a Naga queen and, consequently a true Pallava."

African slaves in Malabar(Kerala)

I was trying to find out if there was some connection between Malabar(Kerala) and Africa in ancient times. When I searched about it I got this information from some books, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.194.67.158 (talk) 09:57, 8 April 2018 (UTC) From Africa from the Sixteenth to the Eighteenth Century bby Bethwell A. Ogot: It is of great importance that this small group of African migrants had such an impact on the policies and actions of Great Britain, Portugal and the Netherlands, as well as on local Indian states. Africans also settled along parts of the Malabar coast. Black Jews of Cochin and Kerala in southern India, who were descendants of African slaves, settled along the Malabar coast during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Most became menial labourers and intermarried with local inhabitants and other Jews. The Portuguese were responsible for settling African slaves along the parts of Malabar coast, especially around which became one of its headquarters in 16 century. Black slaves were used as soldiers in Goa and Ceylon and also in Macao in 16th and 17th centuries. The slaves also served as bearers and escort for Portuguese and African women were frequently kept as mistresses."

From The Muslim Diaspora (Volume 2, 1500–1799): A Comprehensive Chronology of the spread Islam in Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas By Everett Jenkins, Jr.: "In 1663, the Malabar coast in India came under Dutch rule. Afterward, the Jews of Malabar prospered, especially in Cochin. The success of the Malabar Jews attracted Jewish immigrants from all over the world. These immigrants inevitably established close ties to the Jewish community of Amsterdam."

Encyclopedia of Modern Asia - Volume 1 - Page 33: "Numerous Dravidian place-names in the interior of southern Africa suggest these ancient mariners penetrated far inland in search of slaves and raw materials." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.219.50.5 (talk) 07:46, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Please can you stop posting all of these quotes, many of which are from unreliable sources and/or seemingly irrelevant, and tell us what it is you are trying to achieve in the way of improving this article. - Sitush (talk) 19:49, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

What I am trying to achieve? I am trying to clear all the misconceptions about my community. Some people are spreading the false rumors about Nairs. You can get the information, which I have added, from historical texts and census reports. Okay? Sitush, you are not the owner of Wikipedia. If Wikipedia has given me the right to add correct information in the talk page, you have no right to stop me or anyone in the world who has the right. Understand? I know what you have written about Kaniyar community. Some of the information didn't contain citation or sources. I also read the talk page of Kaniyar. In the Vedas, there is mention of a Brahmin sub-caste called Sakaladweepa Brahmins.

Most importantly, I am adding information on the talk page and not on the main page. I am not adding something that was created in my imagination like you did on the article about your favorite community.

Sitush, if you think that I have added false information, go and read historical text and census reports of India. What have you written on the page of Padayani? Kaniyar Panickers the were preceptors on Nairs. In which historical text of Kerala it is written that Kaniyar Panickers were the preceptors of Nairs? Tell me Sitush? From where did you get this information? The word Kaniyar itself means 'The one who calculates'. What is the connection of Kaniyars with Kalarippayattu? There is no mention of a caste called Kaniyar in Keralolpaththi. This caste was first reported in the census report of 1881.

Sitush, it's your responsibility to refer the books before writing the article. You are a kindergarten student. If you are not getting information, ask those who know about it. Every day Millions of people around the world visit this website and most of them are students. If you have got an information from a book, fine, add it otherwise for God's sake keep your mouth shut. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.194.67.158 (talk) 09:52, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Raj era census reports and even earlier documents are not reliable souces. - Sitush (talk) 09:59, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

How can you say that they are not reliable? Because the census was conducted by British rulers and not Indians? If the data on those reports were incorrect, Indians would had changed it within one year after independence. Why didn't they change? Because most of the information given in those census reports are true. For example, about Nairs, serpent worship, matrilineality, they have also noted that Sambandhams existed in Nair community but to a small extent because the population Nairs were larger than Nambuthiris. They have clearly written than high caste Nairs don't marry Pallichans. It's true! my maternal grandmother had told me about this when I was 11 years old and in 2017 I came to know that it is also written in the census reports. Some of the British rulers have observed the Indian communities very well.

If Raj era census reports and documents earlier than them are not reliable then which documents are reliable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.194.67.158 (talk) 10:52, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

I have already referred you to WP:RS. Find modern, independent sources that have had editorial oversight. Academic sources are best. As for who says the census etc are not reliable, well, the Wikipedia community says it. - Sitush (talk) 11:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)